Dr. Gary Wojtas

Chris:

Welcome to the Let’s Get Personal Podcast. On this show, we bring on guests to discuss topics that will challenge us to grow personally and professionally. I’m your host, Chris Abella, and today we have the privilege of speaking with Dr. Gary Taz, a distinguished college professor, and the executive director of educational products at Rally Education. Alright, we’re live. We’re happy to be joined by Dr. Gary Taz. Today. I’m very excited about this guest, longtime, a friend of mine and has a great background and some of the topics that we’re going to discuss today, which is going to be mainly all different levels of education. So Gary, just to jump in, why don’t you tell us a little bit about what you do and what your background as related to education is?

Dr. Gary:

Sure. So right now, Chris, for the past 10 years, I’m the Executive Director of Educational Projects at Rally Education. We’re a publisher of educational materials based in Glen Head out on Long Island, New York. Basically what we do is we create books, guides, textbooks for students, mostly in grades three through eight. We do some younger, some older, but mostly those grades basically to help students do well on state mandated testing and also learn better skills in English and in math.

Chris:

Okay. And is this your company Rally that they’re in the same line or vein as a McGraw Hill or Scholastic?

Dr. Gary:

Sure. They’re basically competitors of ours, obviously with a much larger region budget, but we’ve been around a long time now. We have a very good reputation with our customers and our prospects, and we are national. We do have clients across the country

Chris:

And as a product director there at Rally Education. What’s your job description, so to speak?

Dr. Gary:

Yeah, well, we like to use the term conceptualization to completion. Basically what I try to do is come up with concepts for projects and then basically with the staff that we have, work with them to try and see them through from the beginning until the end, which is bringing writers and editors and things along those lines to make sure that all of the staff is in place to try and get things going and moving in the right direction.

Chris:

And does your company handle a specific geographic location or are you pretty much nationwide?

Dr. Gary:

Yeah, well, we’re based in New York, but our three main sort of client states are New York, Florida, and Texas. But we do have customers in California, and I think we’re in 28 states at the moment with different customers. We have sales reps at many different areas around the country. So we like to say that we’re national. Obviously there are some states that we don’t have as large of a presence in as we’d like to. We are looking to grow in those areas.

Chris:

And just for the lay person in the audience, what are the types of products that you guys are producing and how are they utilized out in the public school system and maybe private school system?

Dr. Gary:

Sure. So our main bestseller, for lack of a better term, is what we call our rehearsal product line, which is a book that’s geared toward students that are taking a state mandated test, which basically is given in every state across the union. So what we’ll do is we’ll actually get the blueprint for that specific state’s test and we will match a rehearsal product, basically a guide for a student exactly as that test is laid out, the number of questions to a T, the types of questions, the different areas that they cover and things for students to basically be able to look at as sort of a practice test. And then within that material, we’ll also provide for the teacher how to use this product to teach students. The goal always is the students start at one place and if they use our products, they will improve their test scoring and statistics prove that out.

Chris:

And we’re going to circle back and expound a little bit on the middle school high school experience, but before we get into that, I understand you’re a published author in your own right. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that?

Dr. Gary:

Sure. So right now I’ve had three different books formally published. Two are sort of nonfiction works based on Long Island history. I’m very into history and regional history and things along those lines. And I also have a book published with University of Michigan Press on Leadership, looking at leadership, different criteria for business leaders, education leaders. That also was what my dissertation theme was studying leadership and basically looking at what makes a good leader, why do people move towards certain people, to look for different skill sets to help them lead things along those lines. And I also have about three or four manuscripts done right now for sort of a teen or tween audience that will be published at some point in time coming up relatively soon I’m hoping. But those are all geared around issue oriented thing for students. Again, it’s sort of a codicil to my work here at Rally, but it’s things where students look at change, look at loss, look at making new friends, new environments, cyber bullying, using the internet properly, things along those lines.

Chris:

Well, and one of the reason why I’m so excited about some of the topics we’re going to get to is your breadth of experience because at Rally it sounds like you’re doing everything from elementary up to high school, and yet you’re also, you bring the experience of being a college professor for over 25 years and want you to That’s true

Dr. Gary:

And that’s true, and those are really kind words, but that’s usually meant for somebody who’s now old, which I am, but also means that a lot of experience. I’ve taught higher ed for about 24, 25 years now, and I really enjoy that and it’s an eyeopening experience, and I actually always tell any professional person that I know if they’re not doing that, they really should think about grabbing a class or two. You’re certainly not going to do it for a big cash investment, but it really allows you to impart your knowledge and experience onto a group of minds that are really looking for information from a quote unquote expert.

Chris:

And so I do want to parse it out a little bit because you have such great experience. While we have you, I do want to grab a little bit from each kind of phase of your experience. So just as a jumping off point, and I love this stuff just because as you know, I have three kids, two, two in high school, one just entering and one leaving high school to go into college. So definitely interested to get your point of view on a lot of these topics. But turning to more of your day-to-day job at rally education, what do you think are the most important factors on how kids should learn or study as you create curriculum for them?

Dr. Gary:

Right? Yeah, the actual method and the structure of education, how to teach something really hasn’t changed since the days of the one room schoolhouse. It’s that idea of I do, we do, you do, for lack of a better term, where the teacher will stand next to the student or in front of the students and basically they’re an expert and they will do a modeled sort of event. They will show them a question and they will give them the answer and they’ll explain to them how to get the answer. Then the guided, the we do part is let’s do it together. Now you and I’ll sit down, I’m the expert, you’re the learner, and I’ll let you do some of it and I’ll do some of it and you’re getting there. And then the last part of course is the you do part is that’s kind of throwing the bird out of the nest, which is now, okay, you should have learned this thing, now let’s see how you do on it.

And that’s usually basically the testing phase. And that’s how a lot of our books are structured. It’s a little more complicated than that, but it’s the same basic concept. We like to call the last part on your own, which is now that we’ve kind of given you all of these things, let’s see how you’re doing. And then of course there’s a rubric and a grading element and grades are nothing to be scared of and they’re nothing to be ashamed of. And I think in our 21st century model, a lot of times that’s part of it. Oh, we’re so concerned about students failing. Well, just because a student necessarily does bad doesn’t mean they failed something, it just means they need to do more work or learn more things in that area. I think that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. So now, okay, and what our books will allow us to do is within math for argument’s sake, we’re not just going to look at it and say, oh, he got a 50 on the math test. We’re going to be able to say, well, he did really well in addition and really well in subtraction, but this multiplication part is really, really poor. So now that’s a good thing to say, okay, here’s another product that we’re going to focus specifically on the multiplication aspect of it so that child can now move up into the area where it becomes on grade level. And that’s where I think our products are effective.

Chris:

I know you and I have talked in the past about a lot of these topics and the way things are taught now. What do you think can be done differently or what’s the best way to get a child to absorb and learn at the best possible way for some of this material that’s not always easy to absorb,

Dr. Gary:

Right, Chris? That’s the age old question. And I say to everybody, and you and I have talked about this briefly, but this idea of connectivity between teacher and student is no small thing. And that doesn’t mean that a teacher needs to be loved per se, though they’re such a nice person, but it does need, there needs to be this connectivity. So what can a teacher do to talk to a student on their level, teach them about things that they find useful and they know that’s where the stickiness factor comes in. Because what we’re looking to do and achieve is for this student to remember something, we want to make sure that our goal of what they should know is the same goal that they have. And when they feel that way, it’s the same thing I say to every single person I know at some point in time, every single person in the world remembers their favorite elementary school teacher and their least favorite elementary school teacher.

And that’s throughout your entire life. And I’m a dinosaur now, but I remember Mrs. Gravel in third grade, I remember that quite well. And the reason that I remember her is because of the way she connected with me. She knew I liked to write, she knew I liked sports, and she would give me these little assignments and she would look at them, and again, I just thought it made me special. Now again, she may have been doing it for the entire class. I didn’t know about that. So I think the important thing on the teacher side is to look at these students as one unit, but to look at them individually. Everybody has a different culture. Everybody has different needs and wants and likes, and that makes it tricky. That makes it challenging, but it’s supposed to be challenging. It’s an important role.

Chris:

And I know when we’ve talked in the past, you had mentioned incorporating so many of the real life experiences and that there’s so many backgrounds and cultures to incorporate, whether, as you said, living on a farm or in cities, you try and hit so many different backgrounds to kind of hit your whole audience. And that’s a difficult thing to do, especially as you said before, if you’re teaching to a test, as is probably the bane of a lot of teachers’ existence, I’m sure a lot of teachers would hope that they had more greater flexibility and less rigidity around the requirements of teaching to that test. What’s your thoughts on that responsibility?

Dr. Gary:

Yeah. Well, one of the great misnomers in education, sometimes educators kind of try and bury their head in the sand to say that every single third, I just say third grader for as an example, because usually where we start, but an 8-year-old kid, so think of an 8-year-old kid, think of their interest level, think of their educational wants and needs. So what we like to think is every single third grader needs to be at this point in time at the end of the school year. Is that really fair? Is that really even possible? Not necessarily true. Now, if you bring into that socioeconomic status culture, whether they live in an inner city or they live in suburbia or they live in a farm someplace, whether they’re affluent, whether they’re impoverished, whether we like to take for granted in suburbia, this idea of computer-based sort of things, everything should just be online.

A lot of people don’t have computers and we kind of don’t realize that. We don’t realize that on a regular basis is this idea of, okay, it’s easy to say, well, let’s just do this on a web-based sort of thing. Does everybody have access to the web? So the point being, we need to kind of refocus our educational things, again, geared towards specific audiences. Inner city kids can learn, they can learn effectively, but they learn differently. So can we bring in the culture of the streets that they live on? Can we use the grid of New York City as a math model when they’re learning fourth grade math and patterns and number lines and things like that? Well, we should, and that’s what we try to do. If we’re talking about a farm, can we use farm animals? Can we use acreage? Can we use tonnage? Things along those lines as teaching models. These are what kids are surrounded around. We’re not locking them into being on a farm the rest of their lives, but we’re trying to teach them things where they can start from a position of power, from position of growth.

Chris:

Well, it is funny because it does sound like a very obvious thing in a lot of ways. And I can tell you, having three kids all very distinct and different in terms of how they approach school, and some of them have to be more invested in the topic, so to speak, as you say, to be able to absorb. And because if it’s not they zone out where others can just dial in. It doesn’t matter what the background is. And I think that’s very important. But obviously the difficulty and why that’s probably not as easily as adapted to a classroom, and maybe the teachers that you suggest that stand out are because it is so diverse in one classroom and having that special teacher that can find it takes extra work on behalf of the teacher to find those things out about each individual student.

Dr. Gary:

But one of the models that we use within our teacher guides is this idea of trying to ask open-ended questions for students. So in other words, if you give them a short story to read about whatever, obviously 28 kids are going to read the same short story, but then we might want to ask them sort of a question about, okay, do you see one or two themes in this short story? And can you compare it to your home life? Can you compare it to your neighborhood? Can you compare it to your hobby? Can you compare it to your favorite superhero uniquely individually for Chris, the person? So now I’m bringing you in. Who’s a hockey fan? Okay, well, this is a story about a boy. Well, can you compare that to you? And you might bring in something you did on the ice or in hockey or something along those lines. So therefore now all of a sudden you light up a little bit because well, you really liked the game. You really know the game. You want to write about your experience. You scored a goal last week in your 9-year-old game, so aren’t you going to write now with more passion if you’re talking about that as opposed to me dictating to you, you need to talk about the experience of this specific student, about this specific thing. There’s a place for that, but it’s not necessarily bringing out the potential of the learner.

Chris:

Yeah, no, and I love that idea and that concept, and I hope that continues to get utilized because even you talking about hockey, I’m like, oh, that’s interesting, something I’d want to read more, talk more about, and I think that’s very valuable. Where do you think the explosion or growth of charter school has really been an outgrowth of some of these maybe deficiencies that have exposed themselves over the years?

Dr. Gary:

Yeah, that’s a great point, Chris. And an important one. I think the public, and that’s obviously a really broad term, but I think they misjudge the importance and the growth of charter schools. Charter schools are more than 20 years old, but have really taken foot in certain areas of the country. I mean where there’s just huge growth. New Orleans, for a prime example, 99% as in 99% of elementary school children in New Orleans go to charter schools. Everybody

Chris:

That’s amazing.

Dr. Gary:

And nobody knows that. We know that because our business, but that’s not the only example. It’s very big in inner cities. And everybody I think also kind of doesn’t understand the charter concept. The concept is really to try and have innovative learning modules, looking at things from the perspective of smaller class size, but also having home involvement. Now that home can take on many different fronts. Not everybody lives in a traditional home environment with two parents and siblings in a nice house with a wooden picket fence. There’s some of that, but a lot of inner city kids live differently. So part of the mandate of our charter schools is that home and school involvement where parents slash guardians need to be involved, need to be involved with their children or their mentees working on different projects, working on homework assignments and things along those lines. And the idea is the charter takes on a different power within the community. It’s really a central hub of community bonding, and that’s why it’s been effective in certain places. Charter schools are not going away, and if anything, you are going to see a consistent growth going forward from this point.

Chris:

Any idea. And because it’s your industry of how they’ve really grown recently, is this just an incremental growth? Is this something that we’re seeing move pretty rapidly?

Dr. Gary:

It depends on the area. Like New York, for example, New York City, about 28% of the students in New York City in elementary school grades go to charter schools. Nobody believes that number. It’s a real number. And that number has been incremental, but I would say over the last maybe five years, a little earlier per pandemic, but especially post pandemic, people are looking for different education. I keep saying modules or models for lack of a better term, looking at things from a different perspective. And again, this is not a knock on the traditional public school system. I went through it. I know you went through it, there’s so much good there. But I think there’s a rigidity to those traditional schools, especially in suburban settings to change and to look at things really through a different lens. And that’s where I think the push of charter schools is making a lot of those schools sort of sit up and take notice, especially teachers, the teacher unions in a lot of these cities are very concerned because charter schools do not require certifications related to teachers.

So they can hire at lower salaries and they can hire a more broad diversity of teachers to come in and really work with students. And it’s working. Now, listen, charter schools, the system is not perfect. Charter schools go out of business on a regular basis. A lot of the times those are from mismanagement because people come into the idea with the right idea, which is, I want to teach kids a different way, but a charter school is a business like any other business, and there needs to be an element of, am I getting my state funding and am I doling it out properly, and am I affording these children the opportunity to learn in some sort of an affordable way? So charter schools are a fascinating model to follow, say over the next five or 10 years in my mind.

Chris:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you’ve hit on a lot of the points that have kind of led to pride. The need for it is so many kids learn differently and now you’re getting institutions that have different options available that maybe didn’t exist in the past for kids. And maybe the public school worked very well for you and I in the past, but certain kids would thrive in a different environment. I mean, we see changes in different options in so many different industries. And hopefully the continued growth of both, there’ll be a sharing of best practices between the public and charter school systems and continue to evolve for the betterment of our kids.

Dr. Gary:

And I like to put myself out there personally, and I think you could probably do the same thing. I have three children. Two of them went to public high school, one went to parochial high school, the middle one, and they all came through. Well, they got great college educations. They did really well, but they were educated differently. It doesn’t necessarily say one’s better or one’s worse, but the parochial school education that my middle child got was different. It seemed more attentive. It seemed a little bit stricter, which he needed in his world. So I think that was the right fit for him. What I am happy about related to charter schools, it affords parents and guardians a new opportunity, whereas maybe that works for one of their children or all of their children where they didn’t think they had that in the past. Now they have a place to go. They have public school, they can certainly send their kids to public school. But now if they have a charter that’s reachable, they can look at that from the perspective of, oh, little Tommy might need this a little differently. They can meet with these people and maybe they can put together some sort of a teaching module that works better for that child. And that’s the whole goal. How can they learn best?

Chris:

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s very valuable. And I think it’s a good segue into another very big part of your career and life as a college professor. And I know even on that level, the breadth of change, I mean, obviously both yourself and I went to college, your children went to college, you have a daughter going to college. So we’ve done a lot of the college tours and just probably before the pandemic, maybe the pandemic accelerated it. But we see a huge growth just in the amount of online learning and schools that are fully online. Some schools that you live on campus, but they offer a great deal of online as a combination. But how do you see the role and the growth of online learning and the impact it might have on those students?

Dr. Gary:

Yeah, that’s a tough one for me. The short answer is I don’t like it. And the reason for that is manyfold, I’ve been around it. The pandemic affected two of my children’s college educations. One of them was forced to sort of take some hybrid slash online classes. I’m in the speech department, but I teach teachers how to teach, for lack of a better term, a lot of what I do there. And I’ve only had to teach one online class that way. So you think about how do you really teach a speech class even in this setting? Now I can see you, you can see me, and stuff like that. But so much of higher ed is the human touch element and the socialization part of, I just met you in class now I find out you’re a sports fan. Now we’re becoming friends now. We’re interested in the same sorts of things.

But now also within the class, we can debate, we can talk topic, we can have a round table discussion with 2025 of my peers about social issues, about sports, about teaching, about the future of education, about the legal system, whatever it might necessarily be. Also that walk across campus that, and forgetting the fact that you may live there. You could be a commuting student too. So what we’re doing in an online setting, I always like to say it’s the bunny slipper thing. I’m sitting at home, and again, I’m not putting it down, but the question was, my feelings about it. I’ve taught it. I don’t think it’s the best learning place for students. I’ve seen students who have come to my classes in higher ed from environments where a lot of their junior and senior year in high school was spent at home for obvious reasons related to the pandemic.

And are they a little bit of a step behind? I think they are. I think it’s not unfixable, but the concern is trends. And I think where things are trending right now for a lot of reasons is the affordability, is the convenience of learning from home and how colleges now are really attacking that sort of thing from a marketing perspective. And a lot of colleges, the Grand Canyon universities of the world and national University, nothing against any of those places where they have started as online. They don’t have a campus setting and they don’t want one. And a lot of students are drawn to that thinking, well, I can work full time and I can fit in a class here on a fit in a class, A class there. I’m just not sure that that’s the best fit. And I’ve seen examples of it specifically in my classes where I think some of the socialization pieces are lacking. And that’s concerning to me.

Chris:

It’s really interesting. Obviously it’s hit a lot of different industries. As you know, in mine, we went almost entirely over Zoom for court hearings. And we’re largely back in, but don’t get me wrong, there’s certain things that they’re five, 10 minutes. And I still love the convenience of being able to do a check-in with the judge over zoom. But I completely agree with you in terms of when you’re doing something of substance, you can’t accomplish that the same way over Zoom. And I see it in my profession as well. And one of the things that you brought up that’s very interesting is elementary, middle school, high school, they have to be in person for other reasons, practical reasons. Parents work, and kids aren’t adults like they are in college where they can just stay home unattended to. So these kids have to go there. But now what you’re telling me is, as someone who teaches teachers, is that this next generation of teachers, or at least some of them are learning to teach kids without the intimacy of being in person and then they’re going to step into a classroom. And the idea that they may be missing that human interaction, that the ability to connect, which you earlier said is so important. They’re not getting taught that in the same way that they’re going to have to teach our kids.

Dr. Gary:

And this is not my first rodeo with this conversation slash argument. And I hear the other side loud and clear. And their point is, now that we’ve established this sort of infrastructure of online learning, there are a lot of students that are not going to have the ability for one reason or another to go to a traditional college, and therefore if you just kind of remove this,

They wouldn’t be afforded that opportunity. I hear that loud and clear. I’m not trying to stand in the way of progress. And I’m saying if there’s no other way to do it, well that’s one thing. But I find in the vast majority of cases, that’s just not true. I think that taking an online class here and there that fits in. Like I said, my daughter’s done it, my son’s done it, so I understand it. But I think going forward, there’s more to higher education than just what you learn in the classroom. And if you’re just learning at home by yourself, I think you’re losing an element of that.

Chris:

Well, yeah, I agree completely. I mean, there’s pros and cons to everything, and I think when used appropriately could be valuable. And that brings me to another question that I had. You’ve been teaching for, you’re into your third decade now, and obviously technology, the existence of the web ai, the amount that children are now communicating by abbreviated language, utilizing text, I mean how, especially someone that’s been very involved with communication and writing skills, have you seen an impact of that transition over the last couple decades?

Dr. Gary:

It’s funny you asked that question, Chris, because when I was thinking of my history of teaching, my first class 24 years ago was at Long Island University in Brooklyn, and it was introduction to writing, for lack of a better term, composition 1 0 1 and long time ago. But it was a very old school, IBC introduction, body conclusion, style of writing class. All the students were there. A lot of it was handwritten stuff that they were doing. And obviously things have evolved with computers and things along those lines. To your other point though about what have I seen over those 24 years related to writing skills? Have I seen a change in students’ ability to write well-structured things? Yes, I have. And I wouldn’t be the first college professor to tell you that. And that’s not to say kids are stupid or they don’t understand it. It’s just to say when you’re doing something one way all of your life, and you think about it, one of the real quick stories that we always say at St.

Joseph’s to our student body is, okay, and I’ll kid around with them. I’ll say, okay, for the next 15 weeks, you have a guaranteed A in all of your classes, but you must take this class without your cell phone for the entire semester, therefore you can’t refer to it. You can’t bring it for the entire semester. Would you do it? Not one student has ever said they would. It’s such an attachment. It’s such an appendage to part of their life. So what do they do on a regular basis? Are they creating ideas unbelievably quickly? Are they writing really fast? Yes, but everything is in some abbreviated environment. So now if you’re going to say to people, okay, well this is a wrong structure. They’re going to say, well, wait a second, I’ve been doing it this way since I’m six years old. Now that I’m 18, all of a sudden I’m going to do it this other way.

And what you say as a professor is, wait a second, this is the right way. And they come back at you and say, why? Because you said so. Right? Twitter’s pretty successful. Nobody writes anything as a full word or sentence on Twitter, right? It’s X amount of characters. Right. So there’s a little tug of war going on there. And so in a very long-winded way to answer your question, have skills deteriorated in traditional riding environments? Yes, they have. Do I think it’s full panic mode? No, I don’t. But it’s kind of hard now, once the horse is out of the barn to say to these students who are 18, 19, 20 years old, by the way, what you’ve been doing the last 10 years, now you’ve got to change back. It’s a challenge that educators are going to face going forward.

Chris:

It’s very interesting, and you and I could probably spend the next hour or two talking about, I mean, you and I both now have lived with cell phones, and you can go into any restaurant school, and these kids are living on ’em nowadays, and it has brought great opportunity, but I also think at a price that we have yet to really fully realize. But we’ll save that story for another day. And I know you’re a busy man, and I do want to greatly thank you for spending the time sharing with us, and I do believe that congratulations is also an order because I understand you’re an avid golfer and that you just recently had your second hole in one. So congratulations.

Dr. Gary:

I am an avid golfer. I wish I was better, like every single other golf, but yes, I did. So thank you very much for that. I appreciate it.

Chris:

Excellent. Well, thank you for sharing that with our audience today. I think they’re going to find a lot of what you said. Very valuable, and we appreciate your time. Thanks again.

Dr. Gary:

Terrific. Thank you, Chris. It was great.

Chris:

Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Let’s Get Personal Podcast. I hope this episode inspired you in some way to realize your full potential. Make sure to share this episode with someone you think needs to hear today’s message and make sure to join us next time.